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From: Monty                         Sent: 27 January 1999 16:47

To: FF circulate (E-mail)         Subject: FW: Damned Lies & Scooter Statistics

 

Superscooters may be the best that is presently available from manufacturers but as Royce says the biggest advantage proper FF's have over superscooters is the back support that means that you are totally attached to the bike to work with it and control it, the arms are just for steering and only a minimum of effort is needed even for that, my

Guzzi V50 Hub Centre Steering Phasar's handle bars are only 20" wide at the outside.

 

See on my web page Eddie McDonnells notes on his Guzzi V50 Hub Centre steering Phasar, his has normal width bars and we have never been able to make it handle like mine which is amazingly solid but agile at the same time. So he is looking at reducing his handlebars as we think he is putting too much effort into steering.

 

Look at the side view of my FF and you will see my arms arm parallel with my legs and just resting on the handle bars, no hanging on like I presume a superscooter must need and definitely no effort needed to control the beast well beyond the limits of a normal bike.

 

If it ain’t got no back rest then it ain’t no FF is my view.

 

Lay back and relax, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Monty

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Royce Creasey            Sent: 25 January 1999 16:09

To: ff@bikeweb.com              Subject: Re: Damned Lies & Scooter Statistics

 

Hi dammed liers

 

I've been talking to my local dealers about the anomalies in UK and European scooter sales, some of which is relevant to this thread.

 

The actual salesmen, who are long used to FFs turning up outside the shop, say that they stock sports bikes because that's what almost all their customers want. They say that there are plenty of people who come to look at the scooters, but apart from the fifties, that can be driven on a car licence, no-one, or very few people actually want to buy.

 

We talked about which particular conditions in this country are the cause of this strange sales distortion.  (Top bike in Italy 15th., top scooter in UK 12th.?  Or something very similar, check Blez's figures. Why?

 

1.  UK licensing laws allow only 50cc on a car licence and the motorcycle licence testing in UK is extremely complex, the result of the Govt. (R.i.h.) trying to wipe out bikes during the seventies and eighties.

 

2.  UK two-wheelers were once a working class pursuit, people used them as transport 'cos there weren't nothing else.  Their children naturally insist that THEIR bikes are leisure products, and they are NOT working class!! Hence 916, not AN400

 

3.  The big scooters are actually crap.  The ergonomics are garbage and only the old CN can be readily converted into an FF by adding a seat back.

 

4.  However the trend towards modern scooters for commuting is recognised and it is felt that there will be some movement towards big scooters.

 

My view is that it is a mistake to accept the big scooters as FFs when their ergonomics simply do not qualify them.  We should instead be bringing their manifold failings to produce a proper vehicle to their attention.  Or rather you should, I've got one.

 

Issa bastid innit?

 

Luv Royce.

 

=====================================================================================

 

From: Monty                                                    Sent: 31 January 1999 20:27

To: 'ff@bikeweb.com'                                        Subject: RE: FW: Damned Lies & Scooter Statistics

 

If your body stays upright then the bike has to lean further to get the centre of gravity to the correct angle of lean.

 

The only part of you that needs to stay vertical is your head to keep the eyes horizontal, probably all cycle-ogical but I can lean a lot further over if my brain doesn't think I am 45 degrees to vertical and I'm going to die any second.

 

Having never ridden a superscooter maybe you do want to move around to control it, but with my Guzzi V50 with HUB CENTRE STEERING then control is about being part of the vehicle and knowing what it is doing, the arms just give a slight nudge of countersteer and it does the rest, rock solid. I've run rings round most other hyper bikes on the Cat and Fiddle road up (actually mainly down, only got 35 hp) from Macclesfield to Buxton. When you see their brake lights come on you accelerate round and they can't catch you on the next short straight.

 

Even at slow speeds I don't move my body, turning the steering moves the tyre contact point to CofG so full control feet up down to a stop is possible. At the BMF rally at Peterborough I went round the ring with a large group, it was packed so progress was slow, it was silly to see all the other 'normal' bikers with their feet dangling totally non balanced and wobbling around but I was able to keep my feet up at all times, no wobble, full control.

 

The Hub Centre Steering totally separates the cornering, braking and suspension giving totally feel and control under all conditions of braking and road condition, there's nothing like it for knowing what is going on and being in control.

 

The Guzzi V50 only weighed in at 335 lbs. before conversion and now has 2 Triumph Bonneville front brakes on it, the MoT man didn't believe the braking forces it generated on his test rig when getting the machine on the road. I have never been outbraked yet, and amazingly enough never locked up the front wheel. All that braking effort is available to use due to the low centre of gravity that doesn’t allow stoppies that are the main limit to normal bike braking.

 

So for me FF means back rest, being part of the machine and being in total control.

 

Monty

Email :- FF@PeterBi.demon.co.uk     for motorbike mail

 

-----Original Message-----

From: The High Priestess   Sent: 27 January 1999 18:55

To: ff@bikeweb.com           Subject: Re: FW: Damned Lies & Scooter Statistics

 

To some extent most of the superscoots have a small backrest.  And I must admit I've never accelerated so hard I've been pushed out of my seat! You definitely don't "hang on"... you just sit on it.  Most of them have a decent windshield so you don't get pushed backwards by wind - no resistance so you move forwards with the bike. 

 

And as far as control goes, I find you get more control if you are able to move your torso independently of the angle of the bike while going round corners - sort of fine tuning as it were, and I'd imagine that a full backrest might interfere with this.  I feel a lot safer going round corners if I'm leaning the bike with my arms and legs but my body is staying

relatively upright - better centre of gravity I would imagine.  Tell me if this is making any sense....

 

'tess   Her Eminence the High Priestess    http://www.priestess.co.uk/

 

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